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Author Topic: Interim report from Dame Judith Hackett's enquiry...  (Read 3536 times)
Fishy
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« on: December 18, 2017, 01:37:08 PM »

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/668831/Independent_Review_of_Building_Regulations_and_Fire_Safety_web_accessible.pdf

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Fire Monkey
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 04:11:20 PM »

That's a lot of reading to take in. Mentioned is the lack of regulation surrounding fire risk assessors - I think it is likely now that some sort of registration scheme will be brought in? There will be a whole line of cars traveling up to Stratford Upon Avon.
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Fishy
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 05:47:22 PM »

There's not much to argue with there - which (when you think about it) is pretty damning in itself - much of this is stuff many of us knew, but couldn't really influence without a tragedy like this to put the industry and government in listening mode.

Recommendations regarding verification of design changes and product conformance with the design intent is particularly heartening - we do a lot of railway work & it's something done as a matter of routine on many of the big rail projects - Crossrail (for example) has a 'Materials Compliance Register' process that everything has to go through and checking fire performance is a part of the approval.  Similarly when we do designs for rail infrastructure we sometimes get retained during construction specifically to review and endorse any significant design changes - sometimes to do on-site inspection and assurance of the 'as built' works too.  Rarely happens on our other commercial jobs (though we do get asked to do it on some of our UAE work).  Expensive and time-consuming process, though.

Vocational and professional qualifications are going to become much more important for all of us in the 'fire' world, I should think...

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Dinnertime Dave
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2017, 11:20:49 PM »

That's a lot of reading to take in. Mentioned is the lack of regulation surrounding fire risk assessors - I think it is likely now that some sort of registration scheme will be brought in? There will be a whole line of cars traveling up to Stratford Upon Avon.

Including mine. Saw it coming 3 or 4 months ago. Interview in February. Any tips what to study gratefully received - Only looking to be accredited for internal to my organisation.
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Dinnertime Dave
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 11:28:43 PM »

There's not much to argue with there - which (when you think about it) is pretty damning in itself - much of this is stuff many of us knew, but couldn't really influence without a tragedy like this to put the industry and government in listening mode

Fishy, I think that sums it up. People knew but nobody would listen.

Some of the designs I saw as an inspecting officer were frightening. Some of the poor workmanship and deviation from agreed fire strategies I now see are worrying, the difference now is I am expected to put them right.   
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Fire Monkey
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 02:44:14 PM »

Good luck with the interview Dinnertime. Don't worry too much of listing loads of BS standards. If I can pass it you certainly will.

FM
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lyledunn
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 09:13:48 AM »



Vocational and professional qualifications are going to become much more important for all of us in the 'fire' world, I should think...



Agreed, but I bet that the cladding on Grenfell was designed, specified and inspected by people with oodles of professional qualifications. You often find that it is the highly qualified professional who writes the report to help circumvent the prescriptive. Such is the system. Perhaps it's time to have less highly qualified people assessing risk and more people who are content to toe a prescriptive line.
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William 29
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2018, 01:35:00 PM »

That's a lot of reading to take in. Mentioned is the lack of regulation surrounding fire risk assessors - I think it is likely now that some sort of registration scheme will be brought in? There will be a whole line of cars traveling up to Stratford Upon Avon.

Are we talking IFE registers here?

I remember when I pushed BAFE SP205 on here and many poo pooed it saying why should we have to pay to go through a process to prove competence when I have MIFireE or GIFireE and 30 years on a fire engine. I think this interim report may even be going one step further in that you will need to be qualified/accredited to conduct FRAs on high rise and complex buildings?
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Golden
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2018, 02:20:01 PM »

Good, and I hope they make the minimum requirement at IFE Members/equivalent and a 'relevant' degree level too.

Having gained the SP205 for my company and as an individual I'm on the IFE register. I found the IFE process a lot more technical and relevant to fire safety, the SP205 was a QA on company procedures and policies with a basic test of fire safety knowledge that certainly wasn't suitable for complex buildings and, in my opinion, is far from proving the competence of individuals who carry out the FRAs on behalf of the companies. I don't know what the 205 process is these days as I left after one year as it was a pointless exercise, I hope that its changed but I doubt it.

30 years doesn't qualify you for anything except a pension, I couldn't comment on any Moreton courses as its a long time since I did the long FP course but if its still the same untested, no failures, futile exercise then this also shouldn't be seen as a qualification. I got into a lot of trouble with voicing that opinion a few years ago  Grin
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AnthonyB
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2018, 08:29:45 PM »

What ever it may have been in the early years the SP205 process (from our firms experience) isn't light on the technical side, we have to detail how we allocate staff for property types and show the qualification & experience framework that determines who can do that.

Plus reports are examined, critiqued and rated across the sectors we serve.

It's not a simple process to just chuck a load of QA stuff at the auditor, if the technical side is lacking they will find it and challenge it.

Of courses there are different bodies approved to certify you to SP205 so some may work differently, we use NSI.
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Anthony Buck
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lyledunn
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2018, 08:19:21 AM »

Accreditation certainly has its merits but individual competence is the foundation of safety schemes in any industry or discipline. If fire risk assessment is here to stay as an industry then perhaps younger entrants should be encouraged from a wider spectrum. Some of the existing nation-wide apprentice schemes of other disciplines could offer a good starting framework. Whether it is true or not, many peoples impression of a fire risk assessor is of a retired fire officer supplementing his pension.
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Golden
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2018, 03:49:40 PM »

I agree - just had a query from a 'fire risk assessor' who I've never met that is an associate at a company where I've recently done some sub-contracting. To cut a longish story short; 6 storey building, single central lobbied stair, L2 AFD. His query regarded travel distance and quoted 40-50m single direction about which he was rightly concerned but no other information or floor plans. A quick google search pulls up the building brochure, including floor plans - a quick visit to google maps using their measuring tool reveals the building is only 30m approximately front to back. My deduction is that this clown fire risk assessor is measuring the TD from the farthest point on the 5th floor to the street exit even though its quite obvious to me looking at the drawings in the brochure that its a lobby protected staircase. There maybe other factors of course being 6 storeys, unknown occupiers, condition etc. and I am making an assessment from approximately 200 miles away but the lack of knowledge is astounding!
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AnthonyB
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2018, 08:37:13 PM »

Oh dear!

Just like specialist fire alarm and fire extinguisher firms have to cope with competition from multi discipline FM firms with engineers who are air con/cctv/plumbing/PAT/EICR/EL/Alarm/extinguisher/fire door engineers rolled into one a lot of fire risk assessors are primarily H&S or Env. Health consultants who have to be multi-disciplined (sometimes adding water hygiene, asbestos & CDM) due to economic pressures of the market (end customers don't always want the hassle of two separate site visits and certainly not the extra proportionate cost).

It can work (we do it) but it requires good ongoing training, CPD and support and also a good skills matrix to ensure they don't get allocated to work out of their depth. We retain specialist fire safety only staff for the more complex work, plus BAFE make sure we are ensuring we are keeping things shipshape.

I have seen some howlers in FRAs by all sorts of providers such as extinguisher firms, H&S consultancies and employment law consultancies and some quite good stuff done in house by RP's staff, the latter proving the original intent of the law that you don't always have to use an external third party, nor be accredited, to produce a suitable assessment.
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Anthony Buck
Fire Safety Technical Lead at a BAFE SP205 accredited consultancy

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Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
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https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36b9572
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