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October 17, 2017, 06:59:24 AM *
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News: It is with deep regret that the Webmaster, Colin Simpson, and I have to inform the forum that Alan Kurnatowski (Kurnal) passed away on the 17th April.
Colin T & Colin S have provided an obituary in the fire safety forum
 
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 1 
 on: October 16, 2017, 06:53:13 PM 
Started by jayjay - Last post by Owain
Note that the list of expert witnesses has just been posted and no surprises as to which FireNet member has been listed.

How are we supposed to keep the Bar open if members get dragged off to inquiries left right and centre?

 2 
 on: October 15, 2017, 09:34:29 PM 
Started by jayjay - Last post by jayjay
Thanks Wee Brian for that post, the facts are what will be important to all concerned with fire safety and also the results of the findings and any recommendations.

Note that the list of expert witnesses has just been posted and no surprises as to which FireNet member has been listed.


 3 
 on: October 15, 2017, 08:37:27 AM 
Started by jayjay - Last post by wee brian
just to clarify. its fine to discuss facts. and certainly the findings of the Inquiry and the Review.

what we don't want is wild conjecture that brings the forum into disrepute.

 4 
 on: October 15, 2017, 08:31:05 AM 
Started by Tadees - Last post by wee brian
fire stats belong to the Home Office now, not DCLG

 5 
 on: October 13, 2017, 01:55:04 AM 
Started by lyledunn - Last post by colin todd
Lyle, do the model terms not deal with exit widths.  The old yellow guide used 2 minutes, 2.5 minutes and 3 minutes evacuation times.  You should maybe use the sector specific guides that support the FRS (NI ) Order.

 6 
 on: October 12, 2017, 09:18:34 PM 
Started by Fire Monkey - Last post by AnthonyB
No, the fire rating for afff foam extinguishers is 9 litre 183B, 6 litre 144B, 3 litre 55B, you would need three 3 litre foams to replace a 6 litre, better to stay with the 6 litre.

It's not been that simple for years, different foam compounds and spray nozzles from different manufacturers mean that you can get 6 litre models rated 34A:183B and 9 litre models rated 43A:233B. Some standard 6 litre foams now are 21A and the 3 litre models are almost all 13A and several are now 70B not 55B.

A lot of people are installing on capacity (as in the pre 80's days when there were no fire ratings) meaning that where a customer has a fire point of 2 x 13A 6 litre foams replaced they sometimes end up with 2 x 27A rated foams in their place when they could have reduced to 1 (most foam extinguisher installations aren't based on the need for a particular B rating, just the A rating)

Discharge testing/extended servicing foams (or indeed any wet) is in theory worth doing if you already have the training and equipment and certainly with the UK & US made kit, however with imported stuff it has been hit and miss with regards to linings being OK (although this seems to have improved in recent years). Many people don't bother though because of the need to give staff additional training and equipment (filling has been off the service syllabus for years), environmental restrictions, time costs, failure rates and low new equipment prices.

Extinguisher signage - the intention was to sign only if not in plain view (the Government Guidance reflects this) but the way the relevant article in the Order is written is with such terrible grammar that it's easy to read it as needing signage regardless of location and the extinguisher trade have lobbied hard enough to get this also reflected in the sales guide that is BS5306-8.

Call point signage - with newer call points that comply with EN54 and use a pictogram instead of 'FIRE' unless they are not in clear view or need to be seen from a distance I don't automatically require extra signage as the call point already has it.

Fire Action Signs - The DCLG guidance suggests these should still be used in larger or complex premises next to call points and this is a throwback to the Fire Precautions Act days when a fire certificate would invariably require Notice N1 (or N2) next to each manual call point. To me these are more use next to a call point than the call point pictogram as they not only draw you to the MCP but then tell you what to do (not everyone remembers their training)

 7 
 on: October 12, 2017, 08:24:27 PM 
Started by Fire Monkey - Last post by Fishy
I agree that fire action notices by MCPs are a waste of time. Nearly all MCPs are on circulation routes or by exits from the building, so who the hell will be stopping to read them? We put fire action notices in tea points and on the back of toilet doors - at reading height when sitting! Seriously - who can avoid reading when, er, waiting.

As for fire extinguisher signs - again, we do not use them. The only exception is a bespoke sign we display above our Class D powder extinguishers (for metal fires) to highlight 1) it is a specialist extinguisher 2) only trained staff should use it and 3) it is not safe on electrical fires

We never sign a MCP. If a person doesn't recognise this red glass fronted box as a MCP, I doubt a red pointy finger sign will help. However, we do sign green break glass door overrides and yellow vent break glasses (again, with bespoke signs), as people generally don't know what they are.

I hate the 'over signage' that you find in so many places. My hatred probably stems from some terrible times I spent when I was younger at Youth Hostels that had signs every 2 metres (don't do this. Please do that etc) Roll Eyes

One day, I'll find the picture that I had of a 'Fire Exit' sign screwed inside the (only) door of a toilet cubicle.

 8 
 on: October 12, 2017, 08:07:13 PM 
Started by Messy - Last post by nearlythere
Just an update on this one.

With reference to the fact that there is no requirement to supply equipment for the fire service, how about this one:

I am aware of a relatively recent significant UPS fire (a 6 pump fire I believe - and Colin, & it was nowhere near London, nor did it involve any former, serving or would be London personnel!) where a number of fire and rescue personnel were injured. One issue was the fire and rescue service didn't have enough CO2, neither was there sufficient in the building to tackle this incident which involved live equipment that could not be isolated.

Neighbouring buildings were broken into by the fire service and eventually sufficient resources were 'procured'.

On the strength of this incident, we are now beefing up our CO2 availability in certain premises that have large or complex UPS equipment to provide a pool of FFE resources for the fire service, over and above what may be required for compliance reasons.

Of course, this is entirely a business continuity matter, and as such missed by me when carrying out a FRA. Again, for Colin, London do not carry any CO2, so the situation is even more relevant in the capital. In addition, the LFB training note relating to electrical plant, devotes just one paragraph on UPS's, despite the thousands acres the capital.


I think firstly we must remember that it is First Aid Fire Fighting Equipment and secondly, should it not have a suppression system installed if it is such a high risk? Perhaps the F&RS should start to consider a Co2 Tender?

 9 
 on: October 12, 2017, 07:56:48 PM 
Started by Fire Monkey - Last post by nearlythere
I agree that fire action notices by MCPs are a waste of time. Nearly all MCPs are on circulation routes or by exits from the building, so who the hell will be stopping to read them? We put fire action notices in tea points and on the back of toilet doors - at reading height when sitting! Seriously - who can avoid reading when, er, waiting.

As for fire extinguisher signs - again, we do not use them. The only exception is a bespoke sign we display above our Class D powder extinguishers (for metal fires) to highlight 1) it is a specialist extinguisher 2) only trained staff should use it and 3) it is not safe on electrical fires

We never sign a MCP. If a person doesn't recognise this red glass fronted box as a MCP, I doubt a red pointy finger sign will help. However, we do sign green break glass door overrides and yellow vent break glasses (again, with bespoke signs), as people generally don't know what they are.

I hate the 'over signage' that you find in so many places. My hatred probably stems from some terrible times I spent when I was younger at Youth Hostels that had signs every 2 metres (don't do this. Please do that etc) Roll Eyes
Or what about a sign saying don't put any signs here Messy?

Anyone noticed the number of "Fire Exit - Keep Clear signs on main entrance doors or a Fire Door - Keep Shut sign on an inner entrance lobby door or outside a final exit door.

 10 
 on: October 12, 2017, 07:52:09 PM 
Started by Fire Monkey - Last post by nearlythere
I also assume that in fire station such signs would not be required as those fire fighters wold have sufficient training!

Not everyone working in a fire station will be a firefighter. Larger stations may have 'civilian' support staff.

And it is possible in smaller stations that when there's a call-out all the fire service staff jump on the appliances and roar off into the sunset sirens wailing, leaving no supervisory or support staff on site, but painters and plumbers etc carrying out maintenance will be left to get on with their job. They may be unfamiliar with the premises.

In fully retained stations with no staff on duty said painters and plumbers etc may be given a key and left to get on with it.
Contractors are required to be provided with fire safety information for where they are working so as to ensure their safety. That should include the means of escape. 

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